Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

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• Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

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• Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

  9 May 2008, by Dan O’Neill

  I think that the most recent draft of the conference position (last modified 2008/05/07 11:57) contains a number of excellent ideas. However, I fear that it is becoming too vague, and that the meaning of degrowth is getting lost. At the risk of making myself unpopular, I have attempted to create a more streamlined version, while still preserving the big ideas. I have posted this revised version to the Wiki (modified 2008/05/09 18:36).

  Some specific points that motivated my edits include:

  1. I think we should be wary of defining degrowth through references to “social, economic, and ecological sustainability”. The latter are vague concepts, which have been co-opted to mean many different things. I have attempted to provide a more explicit definition of degrowth (borrowing from the R&D definition).

  2. The issue of population is not mentioned anywhere in the declaration, and I think this is an oversight. Environmental impact is, after all, the product of per capita consumption and population. Therefore I have included references to population in my revised version.

  3. I have reduced the size of the paragraphs, and enumerated them, attempting to have each paragraph contain a single idea.

  4. I have attempted to remove any text that could be seen as “inflammatory”, as I fear this could undermine the central message and credibility of the declaration.

  5. I have replaced the definition of “steady state economy” used in the declaration with the definition from the CASSE declaration.

  I invite your comments on these edits, which are an attempt to create a shorter, more explicit declaration. I hope that they bring us closer to consensus (and not further away!)

  Cheers,

  Dan O’Neill

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  • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

    11 May 2008, by Dan O’Neill

    Hello Maurizio,

    Thank you for the quick and honest feedback! Trying to edit a conference declaration is definitely a difficult balancing act...

    My main intention with the original second paragraph was to add the issue of population growth, which was previously absent. I found that my addition made the paragraph somewhat confusing, so I broke it up into four separate points, to capture the four important ideas contained in the paragraph.

    I removed the last line of the paragraph, which referred to unequal exchange in trade and financial markets being the cause of increased inequality between countries, because I feel that the issue is probably more complex than this. The important thing is that growth has not reduced poverty, and this is difficult for anyone to argue with. The reason WHY growth has not reduced poverty is more controversial, and I didn’t want our critics to be able to dismiss the entire point by arguing the justification. But perhaps I am being too cautious...

    More generally, the thing that I am most concerned with in the previous draft is defining degrowth in terms of social, economic, and environmental sustainability, which I do not see as being particularly meaningful. I think we need to be explicit about what degrowth is, and define it on its own terms.

    I think that the work that has been done so far is excellent, and look forward to further comments, edits, etc.

    All the best,

    Dan

    — - maurizio ruzzene <ruzzene@gmail.com> wrote:

    Ciao Dan (Hali, and everyone) I appreciated your will to make shorter or "more streamlined" the conference position, probably it was a little bit long, but, sorry, now I feel the last version a little bit "cool" ("freddo" we say in Italy); moreover I don’t understand well why to articulate the prior second paragraph (from line 3rd to 7th of last version 2008/05/7, h. 11.57, that looks me enough good) in 3 points or distinct paragraph (point 1, 2 and 3 of last version , may 9 h. 18.36) that seem (to me) less incisive or more vague than prior version.

    Probably we have to find a "medium way", probably it will require a further collective work, but it will be possible before next monday ? However I found the work already done quite good; tenderly, Maurizio

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    • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

      23 May 2008, by Blake Alcott

      Hello everyone,

      I support Dan O’Neill’s efforts to include population size in the declaration. The NUMBER of consumers is just as important as the AMOUNT of material/energy throughput (depletion and pollution) caused by each. Let’s not continue going along with the taboo on talking about this.

      Please shorten the draft (the ’ISEE’ one with 6 ’Background’ points and 22 ’Conclusions’ points) by about half.

      We must DEFINE ’economic growth’/’economic degrowth’. WHAT should shrink? In public discourse there is a chaotic list of meanings like GDP, utility, welfare, happiness, economic activity, affluence, and material/energy throughput. If I am not seriously deluded, it is the latter we want to reduce. It should be more explicit, and explicit that we do NOT mean the others on the list.

      I hope the term ’qualitative growth’ is avoided because otherwise we, too, are playing the GROWTH GAME, i.e. implying that growth of something is GOOD and therefore should be a policy goal.

      Please shorten the Rich People-Poor People part to something like: 1) the whole world throughput (or ’economy’ if this is carefully defined) must shrink; 2) justice requires that the throughput of the poor must rise, so that of the rich must fall so that, net, we are within the sustainable global footprint.

      Let’s explicitly face the question of carrying capacity, i.e. what is the maximum number of people the earth can support 1) sustainably and 2) at an acceptable health-and-happiness level. Nature will answer this for us eventually anyway, but we are trying to soften the landing and therefore must be explicit about it. [More research here!]

      Thanks for reading this and all the best.

      Blake Alcott

      comment on the conference degrowth declaration

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• Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

  25 April 2008, by Hali

  Group 1:

  Some points could be merged, such as Points 1-3.

  Leave point 5.

  Some points such as 4-6 could be deleted.

  Point 7 key. Deleted 8.

  Moved on to conclusion and looked at what was missing.

  General point: anthropocentric. Equity not sufficiently addressed. ‘Rightsizing’.

  Economic focus is too heavy – more on environmental and social.

  Conclusions: 1-2 could be merged. Uneconomic in inverted commas throughout document.

  Point 5: Economic growth may be appropriate in some cases.

  Point 6: More equitable distribution of wealth within and between countries

  Point 7: Economic -> Societal benefits

  Point 8: Refer to socially beneficial at end of point 8 instead of ‘truly economic or rather uneconomic’

  Points 9-10: Combine steady state and degrowth (rightsizing)

  Group 2:

  Introduction (in front of background):

  Economic degrowth, as we define it in this conference, constitutes a decrease in the (scale of the economy?) production and consumption of goods and (market?) services. (as expressed/defined/indicated by GDP?)

  The aims are ecological and social sustainability, social equality and general well being.

  Degrowth requires a (?, proactive? positive?) societal change based on a diverse range of individual and collective actions and policies.

  Degrowth involves a substantially reduced dependence on economic activity and an increase in non-lucrative activity, free time, conviviality, sense of community and individual and collective health. [see other list of nouns]

  Degrowth is a transition to a steady-state economy (relatively stable but mildly fluctuating, in balance with carrying capacity). The economic level ought to be decided through a truly democratic process by the country or community in question.

  Problem: Statement begins with ‘economic degrowth’ and then becomes more general about ‘degrowth’. Also: distinction between vision of degrowth and actual realised degrowth. In the last section, how should political conflict be addressed? Does the document back away from political conflict? What if a community wants to live like Bill Gates? (more edge needed)

  Points 7 and 8 regarding economic and uneconomic.

  We’re missing ecological footprint.

  Quality over quantity.

  In point 13, perhaps add wording or detail to ‘steady state’ regarding social equity/redistribution and more generally included in statement.

  Proposal for resolving the “development” issue in clause 12:

  “Although the word ‘development’ is perceived by many individuals and organizations to mean growth as induced by long-standing international institutions of finance such as the World Bank and IMF, development is actually a qualitative process in which the distribution of wealth may become more equitable, the relative prominence of economic sectors may evolve, and, in general, human welfare may increase without a concomitant increase in the production and consumption of goods and services.”

  Group 1:

  It would be good to have a sort of introduction to the statement:

  Actual economic policy creates individual dreams that lead us to a collective nightmare. We want to create a collective dream.

  Worked on Point 12 of ISEE statement: The global economy has to be within the limits of the ecosystem of the Earth. Global degrowth must contribute to and not undermine the fulfilment of basic human needs and well-being, that implies a transformation of the global economic system. This in turn requires fundamental changes in the global system, and in the policies promoted and pursued at the national level.

  Change Point 12 to Point 1 in the conclusion section from ISEE. Clause 6 of CASSE supplement becomes Point 1 in Conclusions of statement.

  Introduce point on ecological debt. Delete Point 13 of ISEE conclusions section. Add the following:

  Wealth in the North is based on the impoverishment of the South. There is a huge historical ecological and social debt. Stopping the accumulation obliges us to degrow and distribute the wealth and resources.

  Group 2:

  Group accepted what came out of the earlier session. Worked on list of nouns that characterise degrowth: conviviality, equity, leisure, participatory democracy, self-reflection, balance, creativity, flexibility, diversity, community, generosity, respect for human rights, non-materialism, bescheidenheit (contentment?), consideration of cultural differences

  Discussion of whether to simply list the above words or elaborate. Perhaps needs refinement. Where is sustainability? Already covered?

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  • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

    25 April 2008, by David

    DRAFT Conference Position on Degrowth

    Current economic policies focused on economic growth create individual dreams that lead us to a collective nightmare. We want to create a collective dream.

    Background: 1) Economic growth (as defined in standard economics textbooks and indicated by increasing real GDP or GNP) equates to the physical expansion of economic output – that is, an increase in the production and consumption of goods and services. 2) When the positive social and environmental effects of a growing economy are exceeded by its negative effects, the result is “uneconomic” growth, which is undesirable. 3) Based upon established principles of physics and ecology, there is an eventual limit to the scale of the global economy, and to the scale national economies can attain without imposing environmental costs on other nations. 4) The best available scientific evidence indicates that the global economy and many national economies have grown beyond these limits. 5) Global economic growth has failed to eradicate poverty, and has had a limited effect in reducing it. 6) In many nations with widespread and severe poverty, its eradication will necessarily entail substantial increases in overall consumption.

    Conclusions: 1) The global economy must operate within the confines of the Earth’s ecosystem. 2) There is thus a fundamental conflict between continued global economic growth on the one hand, and environmental protection and the ecological services that underpin the economy on the other. 3) Many nations’ economies far exceed the limits of sustainability, and their growth is “uneconomic” as a result, imposing costs on future generations. 4) These nations coexist with others whose economies are unable to provide even for the basic needs of their populations. 5) This indicates a need to shift from the general and unlimited pursuit of economic growth to a concept of “right-sizing” the global and national economies. 6) “Right-sizing” of the global economy implies a reduction of the global ecological and carbon footprints to a sustainable level. 7) “Right-sizing” of national economies implies a convergence of their per capita ecological and carbon footprints towards the global per capita level consistent with sustainability. 8) In nations whose economies exceed their sustainable scale, this implies a need for degrowth – a reduction in production and consumption to sustainable levels. 9) In nations whose economies are unable to provide for the basic needs of their populations, even with redistribution of economic resources, this implies a need for expansion of economic activity. 10) In order to achieve the necessary degrowth of the global economy, such necessary increases in economic activity must be more than off-set by faster degrowth in nations whose economies are beyond the limits of sustainability. 11) Degrowth must contribute to, and not undermine, the fulfillment of the basic human needs of all or the well-being of the world’s population as a whole. 12) This requires a fundamental transformation of the global economic system and in the policies promoted and pursued at the national level, to allow the reduction and ultimate eradication of absolute poverty to proceed as the global economy and unsustainable national economies degrow. 13) Wealth in the North is based on the impoverishment of the South, giving rise to a huge historical ecological and social debt. 14) The need to stop the accumulation of such debt, and to compensate the South for it, reinforces the need for degrowth in the North and a major redistribution of wealth and resources to the South. 15) The need to maximize the societal gains from economic activity within the confines of a finite ecosystem makes it essential to optimize the distribution of the benefits of economic activity (between and within nations) in terms of societal gains; and to optimize patterns of production and consumption in terms of minimizing their societal and environmental costs. 16) The development and application of new technologies should be judged in terms of whether they promote net societal and environmental benefits. 17) The aims of degrowth are ecological and social sustainability, social equality and general well being. 18) Degrowth involves a proactive societal change based on a range of diverse individual and collective actions and policies, leading to a substantially reduced dependence on economic activity and an increase in unremunerated activity, free time, conviviality, sense of community and individual and collective health, and an emphasis on quality of life rather than quantity of consumption. 19) Degrowth should be characterised by conviviality, equity, leisure, participatory democracy, self-reflection, balance, creativity, flexibility, diversity, community, generosity, respect for human rights, non-materialism, modest consumption =bescheidenheit? and respect for cultural differences 20) Indicators other than GDP are required to identify, measure, and compare the benefits and costs of economic activity in order to reveal whether the growth of an economy during any period of time contributes to or undermines the fulfillment of social and environmental objectives. 21) Once the basic needs are met, and global ecological and carbon footprints are reduced to their sustainable levels and equitably distributed between nations, the appropriate objective is that of the steady-state economy. 22) A steady-state economy is one with a relatively stable level of economic activity, subject to mild fluctuations, in line with carrying capacity.

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    • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

      25 April 2008, by David

      Does this work as a way of bringing Fritz’s suggestion into line with the format of the draft as it stands?

      There are increasing signs that global economic growth is unsustainable ecologically, socially and economically.

      If we do not respond to these signs by bringing economic activity into line with the capacity of our ecosystems and with our societal needs, this will ultimately lead to a process of involuntary and uncontrolled degrowth, with potentially serious social impacts, especially for the most disadvantaged.

      A deliberate and controlled process of degrowth in nations which are beyond their environmental limits, by contrast, can increase quality of life as well as economic, social and environmental sustainability.

      David

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      • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

        28 April 2008, by Francois

        First reaction:

        The aspect of decolonizing the economist imaginary (typical Latouche) is a bit missing, also possibly some stance on de-development, also we need some concrete example, it is less cars, less roads, less fossil energy... in absolute

        AS REACTION TO FRITZ:

        It feels important to make a clear distinction between unwanted recession (quoting Fritz) "long-lasting shrinkage with very negative effects for people in rich as well as in poor parts of the world" and degrowth : a wished societal process, we would like economic degrowth for sustainability and equity : a volontary and soft landing of the economy individually and collectivelly, where we "take seriously signs of ecological, social and economic unsustainability" and would possibly improve "human quality of life, jobs and environmental protection" I would add inequity in the world. Degrowth is a wished process and this process should contain sustainability in its goals, that is social sustainability (should contain equity of access to resources, fair democratic process (including more participative and direct decision processes), human sustainability (human right, well being), economic sustainability should include inclusion of cooperation in its fundaments, the smooth process away from crises, ecological sustainability should contain local and global ecosystems sustainablity...

        What we will experience in real life will definitely be in-between recession and degrowth, but the goal of the degrowth movement/research is (or should be) to go as far as possible into fair, sustainable and convivial degrowth.

        The idea at this conference was to explore the idea of, sustainable, convivial, economic degrowth i.e. of the financial (or else...) collective capacity to acquire natural resources and physical goods in affluent and influent world regions

        I can see there a difference between movements of the transition towns, the last discourse of Yves Cochet (not in general), which felt about saving ourselves at short term on the local level, and what we mainly talked about with Degrowth. The catastrophic discourse is useful to change reactions and policy but it could also develop egotistic reactions. So I would say we need to prevent catastrophy, and that we wish to develop individual, local and interlinked research, policies and actions for fair, sustainable convivial degrowth or in short "degrowth".

        REACTION TO THOMAS SCHAUER

        The idea is not to dismiss the people that support the decoupling, we have to admit that the goal is similar when they talk of absolute decoupling (however I would argue that the macro rebound effect seriously question the absolute decoupling dream).

        The problem is that absolute physical extractions are still increasing (although the service economy has increased as never before like (eco-)efficiency), which led to the idea at this conference of exploring the idea of degrowth

        Also we ALREADY experience some public debate on degrowth (in France at least), but it is not occuring in parlementary/economic institutions

        Francois

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        • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

          29 April 2008, by François Schneider

          "collective Dream" lets believe that the collective future would not be realistic and not necesserally good for individuals, we used to say: "growth is a realistic future that is impossible, when degrowth is a possible utopia"

          missing inputs in my point of view from http://www.degrowth.net/Degrowth:

           diverse personal and collective physical and economic processes at local and global levels
           less quantity, more quality
           democracy at all levels

          missing degrowth as a key word to defy, amongst other things, economicism (merchandisation of nature and human relations) and the growth fetish (the belief that any economy should increase the value of it’s exchanges and production to avoid crisis or disaster).

          missing the idea of “modern feudalism” as type of unbereable future linked to economic growth, with an increasingly smaller privileged minority continuing “to grow”, while misbelieving it will protect itself from crises, from environmental damage and from the poor majority.

           balance (in harmonious proportion). To avoid crises, and so that no one is excluded, three processes must combine simultaneously: reduction of consumption (of the “desire to purchase”), reduction of production, and sharing (of work in particular);

           democracy (empowerment of all humans). Reorganization at various levels of society and sharing require more democracy: more participatory and more direct. should include democracy at local to global levels, and democracy within economic institutions, social spheres, production, policy...

          Physical and economic de-growth must leave space for many other growths (mainly qualitative)

          It is about a differentiated de-growth, in order to move towards a more just society in industrialized countries and universally;

           innovation (introducing novelties). It is about a questioning of the current situation (with for example motorways and nuclear power plants..), in order to live with a minimum consumption of resources. Innovation thus integrates the concept of limits, rather than attempts at withdrawal.

          Innovations should be the object of democratic debates and can be refused if they suppress ethical or ecological limits (as may be the case with GMOs, nuclear, arms, nanotechnologies, cloning, etc…).

           diversification. The goal of de-growth is to reach a sustainable society where each lifestyle is unique, while being potentially generalizable. The urgency and gravity of our eco-social problems implies steps with diverse scopes and time frames.

           targeted intervention. It does not imply de-growth on all levels taken separately. Instead sustainable alternatives (for example organic agriculture, renewable energy, or sustainable transport (bicycles, public transport…)) should grow, but by creating a greater reduction of the unsustainable portions of the economy (e.g.: chemical agriculture, nuclear or fossil fuel energy, automobile or air transport…);

           local and global foci. Based on open local economies (“neo-localism”), but including a global level. For this reason local de-growth which involves growth elsewhere, or in the future, is not de-growth;

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        • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

          29 April 2008, by Hali

          Ok. I tried to work in some definition of Degrowth based on Francois’ description. I realise this may not be acceptable/dangerous/impossible. Also added headings and left a question at the end for discussion. Could we try to transforrm more into a paragraph format like Tilburg? 30 points or so is alot of points...Thoughts?

          Hali

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          • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

            29 April 2008, by François Schneider

            concerns about oversimplifying a North South prescription, pointing to current trends in the South for increased consumption and poverty within rich industrialised countries

            I tried to add a bit of that idea already

            Francois

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            • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

              30 April 2008, by François Schneider

              creating a collective dream is kind of ... dangerous, we do not want to make a dream against people will, when coming from outside it is not a dream anymore, also I wished to point out different collective dreams possible, but if you want to put it back this is ok, we would see what others think...

              I guess there are 4 ideas:
               dream: something wished but to be unrealistic
               possible, not impossible like everybody having a car
               concrete: create is then better
               let the choice: dreamS, make possible

              In the north, misery (better than poverty which might be chosen) is sometimes linked not to too low consumption but to too high consumption, the necesity to have a car, fashion clothing... the poverty limit is always increasing. The solution is then change of lifestyle model, infrastructures imposed, and differenciated degrowth.

              Wolfgang has made a whole critics of the word development: it was invented by Truman meaning moving toward american lifestyles

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              • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

                5 May 2008, by mauro bonaiuti

                Hi,

                because of the usual mistake in my e-mail address I join the group just now.

                But I realize that you have done a great work! ... I think we are getting an exlent declaration. Thank you very much for your work. Just a secondary remarks...I feel myself quite unhappy about that statatement about "Maximization" of benefit and "Minimization" of costs... maybe we can leave it or put it in another way.... I also believe that a reduction of ecological Footprint and meet basic needs are not "ultimate" objective of degrowth... Best Regards, Mauro

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                • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

                  6 May 2008

                  Hi Mauro! Thanks for your comments. Do you have any suggestions for putting the things you mention in another way.....

                  Hali

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                  • Workshop 1 Drafting of a de-growth conference declaration

                    6 May 2008

                    Apologies Mauro - I’ve just seen how you have dealt with your comments (the page was locked). Thank you very much indeed.

                    Best,

                    Hali

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